Originaly posted on the TSR online message board (www.tsr.com) by "Ambreville".
I only got some of the comments, there were so many!!
Okay I finally managed to get time to sit down and read all the way thru the stuff. My impression is 'WoW'. Pretty thorough.
some things that come to mind are Where do Paladins of the Order fit in? My suggestions is that depending on what clerical order they belong their duties & responsibilities should be different. Voice: Diplomats & Couriers, perhaps even... tax collectors! Heart: Wandering Magistrates (ie following a route to take them thru most towns), also sent out to recover scriptures & pass out the new laws to garrisons Hammer: These are the Inquisitors & Missionaries (also Recuiters), looking for Heresy & lawbreakers and bringing both to justice or conversion.
I still like the idea of the Eyes of Vanya, but they would be a sub-branch of the Voice of Vanya (diplomatic/espionage) with the latter being slow phased out (depending on their duties)
note: after re-reading the Simbasta article it is unlikely that any Simbasta would join the Order, mainly because they would revere Kum-rah rather than Vanya which means they wouldn't take the Oath of Sevice.
Which brings up the point where do Mercenaries & Allies fall under? I would suggest the Voice mainly because they seem to have the most field commanders. It would pretty much mean that most other races probably wouldn't join the Order because they worship their own Immortals (of course there are exceptions :)
Also a suggestion of required & useful skills
All clerics/paladins need Ceremony: Vanya
Voice: depends on what position/job, higher levels would find Military Tactics & Leadership useful
Heart: Law & Justic (HK), Knowledge (Theology)
useful: Healing
Hammer: weapon: Hammer, Law & Justice (HK)
useful: Detect Deception (when rooting out heresy), Persuasion (when trying to convert non-believers to Vanya)
And lastly let me see if I have the chain of Command worked out right.
GrandMaster (or Primate) army
Grand Knight army subdivision (land force?)
Knight Banneret chapter
Knight Bachelor company/lance of knights
Sergeant helps w/ 10 troops (not of knights)
Perhaps I'm missing something but it seems that knights (basic) don't command anything? (except for their squire :)
BTW Bruce what books are you using for source material?
Where do Paladins of the Order fit in?
They don't. Paladins cannot honestly be part of this organization because its motivations aren't Good, only Lawful. The HK are likely to use whatever means to an end -- paladins don't. One clarification -- warrior classes are part of the military. Priests are part of one of the three clerical branches. They don't mix.
after re-reading the Simbasta article it is unlikely that any Simbasta would join the Order, mainly because they would revere Kum-rah rather than Vanya which means they wouldn't take the Oath of Service.
Correct -- as I explained in an earlier post, Simbasta are not officially part of the Order, but merely allowed to be present among its members. Some Simbasta may eventually switch Immortal patrons in favor of Vanya, and thus request to take the Oath of Service, but I too find it very unlikely (the good ole' boys will be happy!)
Which brings up the point where do Mercenaries & Allies fall under?
They fall under... Mercenaries and Allies. By definition, they are NOT a part of the Order. They function outside the Order, but under the authority of whatever military commander was assigned to them.
It would pretty much mean that most other races probably wouldn't join the Order because they worship their own Immortals (of course there are exceptions :)
Correct, but again, I can see the odd PC trying to break the mold!
Perhaps I'm missing something but it seems that knights (basic) don't command anything? (except for their squire
Correct. Brother Knights are basically elite, heavy cavalry. Now of course, there's a whole menu of knight officers -- see my next post. Be careful not to mix priesthood, cavalry (the knights), and infantry (indentured soldiers). They all have different statuses in the Order.
BTW Bruce what books are you using for source material?
Several books on medieval chivalry, and a couple on the Knights Templar. I'm waiting for a couple more (Teutonic Knights and another that gives the complete text for the Templar's *Rule* -- their internal laws). I'll have to get back home to give you actual titles, publishers, and authors.
Thanks for all the questions! :o)
They don't. Paladins cannot honestly be part of this organization because its motivations aren't Good, only Lawful. The HK are likely to use whatever means to an end -- paladins don't. One clarification -- warrior classes are part of the military. Priests are part of one of the three clerical branches. They don't mix.
Ahhh, this means that the Order may indeed have 'Eyes of Vanya' sub-branch. (geez I keep harping on this, am I seeing the trees instead of the forest?)
Of course by using what ever means could include economic sanctions should the banking houses work out extremely well.
As for clerics in the military order I think there could be some, or some with the potential for it. Otherwise it would be hard for any 'fighter' knight to join the 'clerical' side of the order, especially after they have proven themselves.
A suggestion is that there are clerics on the military side, basically those clerics of Vanya who would rather get out into battle and prove themselves first before being allowed into one of the 3 clerical orders. These could also be those who didn't quite make the cut during the recruiting process (ie nice kid, tries hard, needs some real life experience before he should take on chaplin roles, etc)
And since clerics of Vanya can use swords they can easily be fitted in with the normal training routine. Perhaps it is even a requirement before they get accepted in as acolytes of the clerical side.